General Electric U34CH & Dieseliner Coaches by Pullman Standard

[OpenRailer90]

Glad you will be including a multitude of Comet I liveries, does that include the 'tiger stripe' cab car as shown here?

Also hoping that means high and low door variants as well; as long as they're compatible with the DTG GP40PH-2B and F40PH-2CAT we should be good as it's very likely that they ran with the Dieseliners in service from the 90s to 2000s.

In terms of scenarios to be included, have you researched Morris & Essex timetables from the appropriate time period these ran in? That can ensure the highest level of accuracy in the scenarios that are included for the Morristown Line.

[minerman146]

Openrailer,
Its for comments like this that I am glad for making this thread. Now we have a 2 way mode of communication as the unit is being built not after. What you say is amazingly important

as long as they're compatible with the DTG GP40PH-2B and F40PH-2CAT we should be good as it's very likely that they ran with the Dieseliners in service from the 90s to 2000s

First, I didn't think of compatibility, I just assumed it. Now we will make sure in testing. Since I am thinking out load, if the Comet I - U34CH release has any issue, where say the coach/cab behavior is tied to the loco, that's a problem. And a big one too if we can't "mix and match". This is not known yet so I am speculating. Second, as you know, i am sourcing the information, and so, I have my own interests. None the less, I saw the Tigerstripe and know that Comet I (rebuilds) ran to, I think 2006/9. Correct?

So, I have timetables... I have THE timetables.

E-L NJDOT 1976.jpg

CR NJDOT 1978.jpg

Please humor me for a moment. These are my father's time tables, when I rode with him and the time I drove the Comet I, both sets of these were in his bag. And I have bag the he carried AND the coach key for this unit. I thought about this for a long time. So while I have my biases (really just passionate interest) and I am practical, we WILL have 100% accurate timings, just from uh 40 years ago!

Anyway regarding the Tiger Stripe, you can see from your picture this unit was rebuilt in 1987 because of the doors. This is why the Comet II and the rebuilds are highly likely to be done. On, DTMs FB page, Cesar answers the question to the affirmative for Comet II. He knows about the high doors, 2X3 seating, window changes and the difference in the control stand in the cab. This makes it a separate model and may make it a separate release. If this was combined, it would be 3 locos and 3/4 paint variants of 4 coaches! ( Comet I cab/coach & Comet II cab/coach). We shall see. Do know that right now he is working on the Coach Cab and has not done the interiors for the coaches yet.

I will keep saying how exciting this is - in this post its exciting because of the variety here and how that will look in game with scenarios. Hoboken will look very cool with the MUs and all the motive power and coaches made to this point. Heck, this could mean more expansions for the NJ coast line route (hint-hint).

Great Post Openrailer - thank you!

[cnwfan]

Glad to see DTM will be including the 3 loco paint schemes in the initial release. I've always loved the silver paint scheme on that loco. Quick question for you though. From reading through your post about setting up the switches / breakers for pull or push service, it looked like the U34CH had EP (electric / pneumatic) brakes. Is this true, or is it straight air? On the Caltrain F40's, we had 26E brakes, which allowed the engineer to hold the brake set on the train, but charge the brake pipe. The only thing was that the brake valve had to be lapped. Also, did the U34CH's have blended braking? If a brake set is made, and the throttle is in idle, the loco cycles itself into dynamic braking. Just curious. Thanks!

[OpenRailer90]

Openrailer,
Its for comments like this that I am glad for making this thread. Now we have a 2 way mode of communication as the unit is being built not after. What you say is amazingly important

as long as they're compatible with the DTG GP40PH-2B and F40PH-2CAT we should be good as it's very likely that they ran with the Dieseliners in service from the 90s to 2000s

First, I didn't think of compatibility, I just assumed it. Now we will make sure in testing. Since I am thinking out load, if the Comet I - U34CH release has any issue, where say the coach/cab behavior is tied to the loco, that's a problem. And a big one too if we can't "mix and match". This is not known yet so I am speculating. Second, as you know, i am sourcing the information, and so, I have my own interests. None the less, I saw the Tigerstripe and know that Comet I (rebuilds) ran to, I think 2006/9. Correct?

So, I have timetables... I have THE timetables.

E-L NJDOT 1976.jpg

CR NJDOT 1978.jpg

Please humor me for a moment. These are my father's time tables, when I rode with him and the time I drove the Comet I, both sets of these were in his bag. And I have bag the he carried AND the coach key for this unit. I thought about this for a long time. So while I have my biases (really just passionate interest) and I am practical, we WILL have 100% accurate timings, just from uh 40 years ago!

Anyway regarding the Tiger Stripe, you can see from your picture this unit was rebuilt in 1987 because of the doors. This is why the Comet II and the rebuilds are highly likely to be done. On, DTMs FB page, Cesar answers the question to the affirmative for Comet II. He knows about the high doors, 2X3 seating, window changes and the difference in the control stand in the cab. This makes it a separate model and may make it a separate release. If this was combined, it would be 3 locos and 3/4 paint variants of 4 coaches! ( Comet I cab/coach & Comet II cab/coach). We shall see. Do know that right now he is working on the Coach Cab and has not done the interiors for the coaches yet.

I will keep saying how exciting this is - in this post its exciting because of the variety here and how that will look in game with scenarios. Hoboken will look very cool with the MUs and all the motive power and coaches made to this point. Heck, this could mean more expansions for the NJ coast line route (hint-hint).

Great Post Openrailer - thank you!

Many great examples to look at is the existing roster of cab cars we have from DTG. For example, the Surfliner Cab Car is able to be pushed by nearly anything, like an F59PHI or a P42DC. If those can be controlled from the Surfliner cab, then the Comet I should be able to control almost every DTG loco, but most importantly the GP40PH-2B and F40PH-2CAT. In terms of scenario variety...the GP40s, F40s, and Arrows will definitely be blended together in mainly Workshop scenarios, such as something that High Iron Simulations might put up. The three-four included scenarios with the pack won't be able to pull that off, as included scenarios in Steam loco DLC has been only limited to the loco DLC and the base route, which is in this case Morristown Line.

[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

What was the original idea behind ordering these heavy duty 6 axle freight locomotives for commuter passenger service? There were no comparable 4 axle locomotives available around that time of design and inception?

[minerman146]

Great question. Why 6 axle, 3600 HP? 1. enough juice to turn the shaft driven HEP. 2. Starting speed because of short distance between stations. 3. GE approached NJDOT and said they would modify what would become or rather was in production the U36. 4. The EL had 100 years of commuter experience and liked the U series. The bought a dozen U33s before and ended up buying another dozen U36s later. 5. I think the EL saw some opportunities to use these in weekend freight service as was their usual practice. 6. The original specifications call for pulling 10 loaded coaches normally and up to 12 at speeds to 100mph.

* Side note these were built without dynamic braking and were built with electro-pneumatic brakes to work with the coaches.

[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

Great question. Why 6 axle, 3600 HP? 1. enough juice to turn the shaft driven HEP. 2. Starting speed because of short distance between stations. 3. GE approached NJDOT and said they would modify what would become or rather was in production the U36. 4. The EL had 100 years of commuter experience and liked the U series. The bought a dozen U33s before and ended up buying another dozen U36s later. 5. I think the EL saw some opportunities to use these in weekend freight service as was their usual practice. 6. The original specifications call for pulling 10 loaded coaches normally and up to 12 at speeds to 100mph.

* Side note these were built without dynamic braking and were built with electro-pneumatic brakes to work with the coaches.

Thanks. EMD still was stuck to steam generators while GE found a way to tap HEP off the main engine drive shaft (by means of separate HEP generator)?

Dual service units also.

[minerman146]

_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha,
I do know that NJDOT went to EMD first. I haven't read anything about why GE got the contract. There are the 5 reasons I posted. The key to the project is the locomotives integration with the coaches. There was no steam heat, the environmental controls were all electric. And the units were integrated. The Cab Car an the Locomotive share: radios, gauges, antennas, brake controls and the clincher - control stands. I know this as I have the Building Specifications dated May 25th 1971. The rendering in the model will also show these shared components. I have 2 cab photographs from the 1970's, and 1 line drawing on the Pullman Standard Operator's manual that show the controls. The rest of this part of the story will come when I talk about the coaches.

[minerman146]

The Pullman Standard "Dieseliner Coach"

We keep calling this the "Comet I" and even I called it that. The Comet I moniker came 9 years later in 1982, when the first order of Bombardier Coaches were delivered. And when you understand that Bombardier purchased the designs from Pullman as they were exiting the marketplace then you gain and understanding how the base design continued throughout the years. (So once again this is not a St. Louis Car Company Coach and it is not a Horizon Coach, its a Pullman!) And since I am lazy, lets go to Wikipedia and cut to the chase:

These cars were the first of the Comet series, built by Pullman Standard in 1970–73 for the Erie-Lackawanna Railroad's diesel-hauled commuter services and purchased by the New Jersey Department of Transportation. These were considered state of the art at the time, due to their all-aluminum body shell construction as well as their use of head-end power (HEP). Their automated entrance doors, designed for use with low platforms only, earned them the nickname "Sliders". 155 cars were built, with 35 cab cars, 110 trailer coaches and 10 bar cars.

'State of the art at the time" Let me say, that I am acutely aware of that and this is yet another reason to do this project. We could peel off the E-L and NJDOT logos and it would still be worth doing. This integration between the coach and locomotive and the concept of the Push-Pull consist is just so brilliantly clever in this application, that we take it for granted. As you know, all subsequent American commuter railroads use this concept. The only downside from out Train Sim perspective is we lose the Turntable and the hostlers in Hoboken turning the locomotives around for the evening commute. But this loss to us was a gain in time savings to EL-NJDOT then and NJ Transit now.

With the model, you will see for yourself what the coaches and cab looked like as it was designed in 1969-70. This will be reflected prominently is the 2X2 Seating configuration, the low doors and the control stand in the cab car. Lets go to pictures of basically the 3 iterations at the coach graphics. Its all about the window stripe. In 1971 we get the EL an NJDOT 'arrow' logo with a deep blue band and red striping. In 1983 the logos are replaced with the familiar NJTransit logo but retain the original paint. In 1987 we get a solid dark blue band and the NJTransit logo that we all know.

comet1EL1971-82.jpg

Comet1_1985.JPG

njt1740whip.jpg

And finally, the work in progress by DTM.

C34CH_058 (1).jpg

But how did we get to this point? Rather, what did I need to do ensure that a valid replica of this Coach and Cab Car could be recreated? There is a total lack of images and zero as-built cars, they were all overhauled and updated in 1987. So, before I talked to anyone I made sure the difficult questions were answered.

[minerman146]

Research for the model

At the time this project was originally conceived much time had been spent for creating a place where these could be run in game. On my other thread, we discussed the unprinted rules about getting a model in game. and In early 2017 the pre-requisites where not properly aligned. I set to work anyway on research to get this into the game, anticipating the end of what I have been working on. The characteristics we had to make this possible (without an official route) were these:

1. Representation of a significant technological advancement in commuter railroads.
2. A passenger set, which are always popular
3. New Jersey Transit branding, which has a strong following in Train Sim.
4. A period piece because of it's late 1960s development and its deployment in 1971.
5. A tie in to commuter operations of the Erie Lackawanna Railroad

With these characteristics, we have a winner already except for item 5. And the real issue was getting the model built in the first place. Then the next issue was to go get it on Steam and out to the masses. To resolve this I chose not to petition the powers and be and wait ... forever... for this to built. Instead, i resolved to deliver a set of complete research to the model builder along with the 5 points above. Pictures are easy, great pictures that a model builder can use is difficult. Source data, was not easy to locate. I also knew, I would have to correspond the source information with pictures and any second person information so I could be confident I had it right. The objective here was to saturate the model with as many details that make these machines what they are as I could. And that, visually, the model would contain all the minor details that only an operator would know. And I found them.

The information, the actual source data I am using comes directly from the manufacturer - Pullman Standard. I reached out to the Pullman Standard Museum. In over a month of discussions, we came to an agreement for terms to have this material unboxed, searched, sorted, scanned and then delivered to me to make this model. According to the curator, I am the first person to request this material. In fact, it had only been sent back to the museum from Bombardier a few years earlier. Over time, I developed a relationship with the curator as we were guessing what to pull base on somewhat vague descriptions. It would take about two weeks to get an order processed. We would go back and forth with my request and he would go in the warehouse and tell me when something looked good. So over 4 months, I placed orders and amassed enough working material to do this. And to answer the question, yes, I paid the labor and for the prints. While, I cant share the physical material or images with you because of my agreement, I can speak with authority about what went and what goes into the model. I have the say this part of the research was the most fun part of the project. I can put eyes on 50 year old data and blueprints (literally blue prints it was 1970!), transcribe that information and then see it get recreated in the model. I promised the curator at Illinois Railway Museum-Pullman Library and also the United Railroad Historical Society of NJ Inc. to get them images of the finished work. They were both really excited about the project and their own involvement. How is that for interesting?

Now, I know I am excited about this project. I hope that I get all of you excited about seeing the General Electric U34CH and Pullman Standard Dieseliner Coaches come to life in our game!

Be my guest and download a copy of original Pullman Company's newsletter of February 1971. I found this in my research and sent a copy to the curator at Pullman ( he had never seen it!) Its a great read because it is enthusiastic!

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1nnXCD ... iS3-gRWlqg

PS_Comet_pg1.jpg

[minerman146]

Frankly, I could write a book here. What I am trying to do is catch up with the development images I have and give some background. In my last post, I gave away the ranch and now you know where I am getting the information from for the model. The data itself is so detailed, I know what color carpet, its weight and its cut size for each coach. I know what coffee urn was used in the Snack Bar Car and the mirror used in the lavatory. It is all the parts. Now this is handy but there is one problem: No drawings or images of the these items. This will lead to my next little bit of discovery with the Pullman Coach. Remember, I knew nothing and assumed everything in the most simplest of ways. Pullman is a fabrication and assembly facility. They fabricated the coach frame and body and the custom metal work for the cabs, vestibules, steps and the like. The rest was all subcontracted from about 40 different suppliers. The trucks, windows, doors, door mechanisms, HVAC, interior fascia and sub-flooring and all the rest come from different suppliers. I was actually able to find some of the parts from thier part numbers in the specifications sheet. The Motorola Motran 2 way radio for example, the Vapor Speedometer and the Excalibur Antenna for example. The rest of it required a heavy reliance on images and drawings.

In the next series of images, I will show you an image of the cab (one of two) that I have and rest will be of the cab work to this point. The level of detail should really add to the immersion and actually make the Cab Car engaging to be in and experience.

Comet1-Cab-Interior-Note-GE-Controls.jpg

This is a very small area to pack all this stuff in ... its only 2.5 feet in depth!

C34CH_059.jpg

C34CH_060.jpg

C34CH_065.jpg

And an exterior shot of the model in progress

C34CH_057.jpg

Please compare the model with this almost one of a kind photo. Its really amazing!

[minerman146]

The Coach Cab and Trailer Cars are being worked on. The pictures below show base textures without the shaders.

C34CH_067.jpg

This is the A end of the Cab Car, the box to the right of the door is the utility cabinet AND lavatory.

C34CH_068.jpg

Engineman's compartment, with control stand, gauges, radio, door controls et all.

C34CH_069.jpg

Engineman's seat and floor detail ... nice piping!

C34CH_070.jpg

Fireman's Seat which folds forward

[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

Really ambitious project. But well researched and your journey through the archives has proven to be both exhausting and rewarding, unearthing all this treasure.

Were those cab car driver compartment doors actually used? There are sliding doors, sliding back into a pocket between the inner and outer walls? Those doors should have been drafty, snow and dirt would collect in the pockets, impairing operation if those doors weren't used regularly? Drivers don't like draft and cold in their cabs.

[minerman146]

Yes, the doors slid into a pocket under electric power. There was also a manual override for the doors. In the cab car, the floor plates are hinged over the stairwell. The original spec allows for the fireman's side to be used by passengers. There is a door in the cab, that would block access to the enginman's compartment, and still allow passengers to enter and exit through the cab.

What is very helpful about having specifications, is that it outlines the functionality of components that drawings don't explain. This is how I found out about the folding seats in the cab for example.

Just this morning I sent vinyl and fabric samples for the coach seating, because I have the materials and colors.
Cab cars have brown fabric center panels with black vinyl side panels. The trailer cars get turquoise with dark blue.

So part of my job is to research the materials. I believe this will enhance the final product immensely.

[minerman146]

The latest news is that DTG has submitted a request to Norfolk Southern to approve the Erie Lackawanna herald on the EL-NJDOT units. The even more recent news is that nothing has been heard from Norfolk Southern yet regarding approval or denial of the request. I don't know if were gonna make it, but were not dead yet!

And, regarding the model itself, it appears that work will be starting on the 'Bar Car' also known as the Snack Bar Car show below. You can also see where the snack bar sections is as there are now windows at the location.

Comet Sanck Bar.jpg

What I can tell you is that 10 of these were built and remained in operation to about 1982. The remained in service to 1987, when they were refitted as Coaches by Bombardier. We have no pictures to work from, only the drawing of the coach floor place and 4 pages of description from the original specifications. The counter has a sink, cash drawer, shelfing for storage and, hold on to your hats, a liquor display and finally trash receptacles. I spend 2 hours last night trying to find the 2 gallon coffee ur/3 gallon hot water coffee maker with a hot water spigot. This was described as an Angelo Colonna, Inc. Model 1000. I found an image of one from the 1950s that was used in submarine service for the US Navy. We shall see how this plays out, but Cesar is eager to make this a complete set of cars.

The internet is great, but finding obscure components for a specialized commuter coach form almost 50 years ago is darn near impossible!

Thanks all for now