EMD F59PHI Coaster - Equalizing Pressure

[FHRob]

Which line item(s) in the simulation.bin and engine.bin files control the equalizing pressure needle? The needle never moves from 160.

Rob

[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

Which line item(s) in the simulation.bin and engine.bin files control the equalizing pressure needle? The needle never moves from 160.

Rob

Are you playing one of the supplied career scenarios?
It is only the gauge in the cab or the F5 HUD/Control State Dialog/Havner's overlay as well?

Have you checked the cab car? Does it display the same values as the locomotive?

Have you tried uncoupling the lead engine and coupling it back to the train?
You'll get a scenario error, but the EQ needle jumps to normal 110 psi after uncoupling and back to the ridiculous 140 when coupled back.
It seems some control values are stored in the scenario, though that makes no sense to me, and I cannot find where.

Try to create a free roam with the engines and train - with and without a cab car - and see if the error persists. It could be the cab car as it essentially is a dummy locomotive.
Could it be an improper setup in the cars is causing this?

I have observed this in my first assessment of the new F59PHI but AFAIK, the cause of the stange behaviour hasn't been found nor corrected.
It doesn't seem the brakes are scripted or of the "advanced" variety. Are pneumatic and dynamic brakes even automatically "blended"?
I've noticed the F59 uses the <Distributor> blueprint only, no triple valve. The cars use both, and the OnConsistMessage is being used by the cars' script to pass along variables.

PS: these passenger trains run with 110 psi set on the brake valve.

PSS: the gauges aren't marked properly as there is no indication of what needle shows what.

Edited: It must be the engines themselves or the cab car, as the strange behaviour only occurs with a top and tail configuration of 2 F59's or with a cab car. There must be some scripted connection between them that messes up the EQ gauges.

[FHRob]

Which line item(s) in the simulation.bin and engine.bin files control the equalizing pressure needle? The needle never moves from 160.

Rob

Are you playing one of the supplied career scenarios?
It is only the gauge in the cab or the F5 HUD/Control State Dialog/Havner's overlay as well?

Have you checked the cab car? Does it display the same values as the locomotive?

Have you tried uncoupling the lead engine and coupling it back to the train?
You'll get a scenario error, but the EQ needle jumps to normal 110 psi after uncoupling and back to the ridiculous 140 when coupled back.
It seems some control values are stored in the scenario, though that makes no sense to me, and I cannot find where.

Try to create a free roam with the engines and train - with and without a cab car - and see if the error persists. It could be the cab car as it essentially is a dummy locomotive.
Could it be an improper setup in the cars is causing this?

I have observed this in my first assessment of the new F59PHI but AFAIK, the cause of the stange behaviour hasn't been found nor corrected.
It doesn't seem the brakes are scripted or of the "advanced" variety. Are pneumatic and dynamic brakes even automatically "blended"?
I've noticed the F59 uses the <Distributor> blueprint only, no triple valve. The cars use both, and the OnConsistMessage is being used by the cars' script to pass along variables.

PS: these passenger trains run with 110 psi set on the brake valve.

PSS: the gauges aren't marked properly as there is no indication of what needle shows what.

Edited: It must be the engines themselves or the cab car, as the strange behaviour only occurs with a top and tail configuration of 2 F59's or with a cab car. There must be some scripted connection between them that messes up the EQ gauges.

Here's my findings, using a free roam scenario:

Engine will show correct pressure readings when uncoupled from consist.

Engine will show correct pressure readings when cab car is uncoupled from consist.

Engine will show 160 psi when coupled back to the consist, or when cab car is coupled back to the consist.

HUD is correct regardless of coupling situation.

Cab Car will show correct pressure readings when coupled to consist.

Cab Car will show incorrect pressure readings when uncoupled from consist.

the gauges aren't marked properly as there is no indication of what needle shows what.

This has been a constant source of confusion for me. In this case, I presume the following:

Left Gauge -

Red Needle = EQ Pressure

White Needle = Main Reservoir

Right Gauge -

Red Needle = Brake Pipe

White Needle = Brake Cylinder

If somebody can comment as to whether the gauge position and needle color is standardized, would be appreciated.

I hope this hasn't confused everybody, but this is getting silly.

Rob

[BNSFdude]

Backwards. White needles always go together (unless cut out).
Left
EQ Res (should be 110PSI in release)
No 2 Main Reservoir Pressure

Right
Brake Pipe (110 Release)
Brake Cylinder Pressure at lead truck (Max 72 psi)

[FHRob]

Backwards. White needles always go together (unless cut out).
Left
EQ Res (should be 110PSI in release)
No 2 Main Reservoir Pressure

Right
Brake Pipe (110 Release)
Brake Cylinder Pressure at lead truck (Max 72 psi)

BNSF Dude:

Attached is a screenshot of the gauges.

Did I list the needles incorrectly or does DTG have the wrong setup?

Thanks,

Rob

[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

Here's my findings, using a free roam scenario:

Engine will show correct pressure readings when uncoupled from consist.

Engine will show correct pressure readings when cab car is uncoupled from consist.

Engine will show 160 psi when coupled back to the consist, or when cab car is coupled back to the consist.

HUD is correct regardless of coupling situation.

Cab Car will show correct pressure readings when coupled to consist.

Cab Car will show incorrect pressure readings when uncoupled from consist.

Rob

I confirm your findings, and suppose it is the cab car that is messing things up.
Next step: how do we correct this?

Is the Bombardier cab car and other F59PH also broken?

[BNSFdude]

DTG is absolutely wrong with their gauge labels.

[FHRob]

Here's my findings, using a free roam scenario:

Engine will show correct pressure readings when uncoupled from consist.

Engine will show correct pressure readings when cab car is uncoupled from consist.

Engine will show 160 psi when coupled back to the consist, or when cab car is coupled back to the consist.

HUD is correct regardless of coupling situation.

Cab Car will show correct pressure readings when coupled to consist.

Cab Car will show incorrect pressure readings when uncoupled from consist.

Rob

I confirm your findings, and suppose it is the cab car that is messing things up.
Next step: how do we correct this?

Is the Bombardier cab car and other F59PH also broken?

Try this, and see what happens:

Free Roam Scenario, with Locomotive leading consist.

Using the cab switch arrows, go back twice to the cab control car. By doing this, I was able to get the needles in the correct positions, with the HUD showing the same PSI.

Keep in mind DTG has the needle setup incorrect - see BNSF Dude's posting.

Rob

[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

Confirmed! Hopping back and forth between loco and cab car makes the needles jump, often but not always ending at the correct 110 psi when the brakes are released.
Still not quite right, however, as the eq needle now seems stuck at 110 psi and requires some more hopping to become unstuck, but not always.
Remember, the brake valve controls the equalizing reservoir to which the brake pipe is connected. With the F59PH it seems the EQ reservoir isn't used at all?
The cab car uses the same engine simulation.bin as the locos, but has its own cabcarenginescript. Could there lie the clue to this strange behaviour?
Those enginescripts seem mostly to concern themselves with flashing ditchlights and stuff. To my eyes, no specific brake parameters of any kind are processed or passed along the consist.

Alas, the brake cylinder pressure still increases way too fast in minimum reduction and normal service applications.
It is as if the <distributor> and <triple valve> amplify each other, giving 5 psi in the cylinders for each psi reduction?
Also, with <ApplyToConsist> set to false, why and how does the EQ pressure propagate when it isn't passed in the ConsistMessage AFAIK? Core engine bug?

Question: on real trains, what do the gauges show in trailing locomotives or cab cars? Are the brake handles in "neutral off" position?

Another related question: is the Amtrak F40PH generally also set at 110 psi "passenger" pressure? Can the core engine handle 110 psi? Where is it used more?

[BNSFdude]

On trail units with the Automatic Brake Valve and Independent Brake Valve cut out it will be as follows:
Left:
EQ Res at 0
Main Res at Main Res pressure. MRs are trainlined between locomotives so they should all be around the same.

Right:
Brake Pipe follows whatever brake pipe pressure is set at from lead, controlling unit.
Brake Cylinder will come up with Independent Brake action (not on cab cars, as they have no independent typically) as well as Brake Pipe reduction will cause 2.5 times that of the reduction of BP pressure to be admitted to the Brake Cylinder via the Control Valve. This in reality can be mitigated by actuation (bail off), but in the game cannot.

One also must remember that passenger DOES operate with Graduated Release. (ABV cut into PASS mode). This allows feathering of brakes much like how you can do it with a car. Put some on, feather off until you get the rate of deceleration you desire. I do not believe the TS consist is set up this way entirely, and could be the entire cause of the issue of the immediate brake application. As in TS you may not have Triple Valve ticked Yes on any stock in the entire trainset as well as having Graduated Release ticked Yes.

[FHRob]

One also must remember that passenger DOES operate with Graduated Release. (ABV cut into PASS mode). This allows feathering of brakes much like how you can do it with a car. Put some on, feather off until you get the rate of deceleration you desire. I do not believe the TS consist is set up this way entirely, and could be the entire cause of the issue of the immediate brake application. As in TS you may not have Triple Valve ticked Yes on any stock in the entire trainset as well as having Graduated Release ticked Yes.

Can you explain how to make sure Triple Valve and Graduated Release aren't both "ticked" Yes? Does this involve only the engine and power car, or do passenger cars also need to be checked?

Thanks,

Rob

[BNSFdude]

I believe it applies to all stock in the consist. It is in the simulation BINs IIRC.

[FHRob]

Here's what I found in each file:

J59 Simulation.Bin:

Triple Valve - True

Graduated Release - True


Coach, Café & Business Cars:

Triple Valve - True

Graduated Release - False

Driving Trailer - Uses J59 Simulation.Bin File

Where do we go with this? Which should be True and which should be False?

Rob

[BNSFdude]

Here's what I found in each file:

J59 Simulation.Bin:

Triple Valve - False

Graduated Release - True


Coach, Café & Business Cars:

Triple Valve - False

Graduated Release - True

Corrected to read how it should be in order to work properly. Now I don't know if there is any modifications that have to be made for the Brake Valve settings or not, but the train should behave much better now.

[FHRob]

Here's what I found in each file:

J59 Simulation.Bin:

Triple Valve - False

Graduated Release - True


Coach, Café & Business Cars:

Triple Valve - False

Graduated Release - True

Corrected to read how it should be in order to work properly. Now I don't know if there is any modifications that have to be made for the Brake Valve settings or not, but the train should behave much better now.

Ok, I made the modifications you suggested. I don't have any benchmark for how the brakes should work with an engine and four passenger cars, but I can say the train doesn't stop immediately from 25 mph with a minimum reduction. I guess this is an improvement, at least in TS.

BTW, the minimum reduction seems to be 10 psi vs. 6 psi - is this correct for a passenger train?

Also, the gauges on the locomotive only read correctly after switching to the cab car twice - strange but true.

Rob