Independent Brake Question

[FHRob]

I know in TS the independent brake can't be bailed-off.

However, I notice that when a train is started with the independent brake on, there's no power being transmitted to the wheels. If I'm correct here, that's not prototypical.

Is there a fix for this? Sometimes when starting on an upgrade, you must put the engine into notch 3 or 4 immediately to prevent rolling backwards, which would normally be a no-no.

Thanks,

Rob

[Rich_S]

I know in TS the independent brake can't be bailed-off.

However, I notice that when a train is started with the independent brake on, there's no power being transmitted to the wheels. If I'm correct here, that's not prototypical.

Is there a fix for this? Sometimes when starting on an upgrade, you must put the engine into notch 3 or 4 immediately to prevent rolling backwards, which would normally be a no-no.

Thanks,

Rob

Yes there is a fix for this, but it's a manual fix. You'll have to open your engines simulation.bin file either using RW_Tools or convert the file to a xml file and edit the file with a text editor.

Once you have the file open, search for the follow line:

<CylinderPressureForBrakeToCutPower d:type="sFloat32" d:alt_encoding="0000000000003E40" d:precision="string">30</CylinderPressureForBrakeToCutPower>

Next step change the value between the greater than and less then symbols from >30< to >0<

Save the file then convert the file back to a bin file. You will now be able to load against the brakes just like on the prototype.

You'll have to do this for every different type of locomotive you are operating.

[Chacal]

RW-Tools has a global (multiple files) search-and-replace function. You might want to look into this.

[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

I know in TS the independent brake can't be bailed-off.

However, I notice that when a train is started with the independent brake on, there's no power being transmitted to the wheels. If I'm correct here, that's not prototypical.

Is there a fix for this? Sometimes when starting on an upgrade, you must put the engine into notch 3 or 4 immediately to prevent rolling backwards, which would normally be a no-no.

Thanks,

Rob

Yes there is a fix for this, but it's a manual fix. You'll have to open your engines simulation.bin file either using RW_Tools or convert the file to a xml file and edit the file with a text editor.

Once you have the file open, search for the follow line:

<CylinderPressureForBrakeToCutPower d:type="sFloat32" d:alt_encoding="0000000000003E40" d:precision="string">30</CylinderPressureForBrakeToCutPower>

Next step change the value between the greater than and less then symbols from >30< to >0<

Save the file then convert the file back to a bin file. You will now be able to load against the brakes just like on the prototype.

You'll have to do this for every different type of locomotive you are operating.

Aren't you overiding the PCS cut-out this way? Normally, locomotive prime movers drop to idle and power is cut when the train goes into emergency or the brakes are applied too fast.
But then is a proper PCS cut out even implemented in Railworks, and since the brake cylinder pressure gauge only monitors one of the brake cylinders on the truck under the cab, would bailing off on the independent prevent a PCS cut out? Not that we can bail off in Railworks

I think the PCS cut out pressure sensor measures train line/brake pipe pressure, so that when a train goes into emergency from the rear or by derailment, break in two, the locomotive's power is cut once the brake pipe pressure drops by a certain PSI/sec rate. In both Run8 and ORTS it works that way, and I think their implementation of US railroad physics and practices is more accurate.

I haven't studied the VRC engines in this respect yet, as I think a PCS cut out can be scripted.

[Rich_S]

I know in TS the independent brake can't be bailed-off.

However, I notice that when a train is started with the independent brake on, there's no power being transmitted to the wheels. If I'm correct here, that's not prototypical.

Is there a fix for this? Sometimes when starting on an upgrade, you must put the engine into notch 3 or 4 immediately to prevent rolling backwards, which would normally be a no-no.

Thanks,

Rob

Yes there is a fix for this, but it's a manual fix. You'll have to open your engines simulation.bin file either using RW_Tools or convert the file to a xml file and edit the file with a text editor.

Once you have the file open, search for the follow line:

<CylinderPressureForBrakeToCutPower d:type="sFloat32" d:alt_encoding="0000000000003E40" d:precision="string">30</CylinderPressureForBrakeToCutPower>

Next step change the value between the greater than and less then symbols from >30< to >0<

Save the file then convert the file back to a bin file. You will now be able to load against the brakes just like on the prototype.

You'll have to do this for every different type of locomotive you are operating.

Aren't you overiding the PCS cut-out this way? Normally, locomotive prime movers drop to idle and power is cut when the train goes into emergency or the brakes are applied too fast.
But then is a proper PCS cut out even implemented in Railworks, and since the brake cylinder pressure gauge only monitors one of the brake cylinders on the truck under the cab, would bailing off on the independent prevent a PCS cut out? Not that we can bail off in Railworks

I think the PCS cut out pressure sensor measures train line/brake pipe pressure, so that when a train goes into emergency from the rear or by derailment, break in two, the locomotive's power is cut once the brake pipe pressure drops by a certain PSI/sec rate. In both Run8 and ORTS it works that way, and I think their implementation of US railroad physics and practices is more accurate.

I haven't studied the VRC engines in this respect yet, as I think a PCS cut out can be scripted.

A lot of questions in this reply, hopefully I can answer them without causing too much confusion.

A PCS penalty application is caused by failing to acknowledge the alerter, it has nothing to do with a break apart, kicker, etc. You are correct the brake cylinder pressure gauge on the control stand is read from the brake cylinders of the truck under the cab end of the locomotive. When the brake cylinder pressure is less than approx. 24 lbs and a alerter timeout occurs, a penalty brake application will take place which causes the locomotive to drop it's load. To recover you are required to place the throttle in idle and move the automatic brake handle to suppression (some railroads call it continuous service).

You cannot over ride a PCS once it's triggered, but bail is one of the five inputs monitored when the alerter is active. Per the FRA only 3 of the 5 have to work for the locomotive to be functioning properly.

If RSC is using this variable for their PCS they are doing it wrong. One of the functions of the IPS (Independent Pressure Switch) is to detect air pressure in the brake cylinders so the alerter does not go off with the independent brakes applied.

When it comes to emergency brake applications, different locomotives react differently by design. Some will actually maintain throttle settings for 30 seconds before dropping the load, other will drop the load as soon as a emergency is trigger either by moving one of the brake handles or a break apart etc.

I can tell you one thing for sure, you can load a locomotive against it's brakes and I do it quite often for testing purposes. Some of the newer locomotives cannot be loaded if the hand brake is on, but that's a different question.

But getting back to one of your questions, after a PCS brake application is trigger, which reduces the brake pipe pressure causing the brakes on the cars to apply, I can bail all day long and the train will remain in a PCS brake application until I recover. The reason the locomotive drops it's load is because the PCS relay drops the coils on other relays and has nothing to do with brake cylinder pressure or brake pipe pressure. I hope I didn't confuse anyone too much

[FHRob]

Hi Rich:

Every time I think I know about prototypical operation, I see there's more to learn.

Could you clarify the following:

PCS - what does this stand for?

Penalty application - in this case, the brakes are applied, but the train doesn't necessarily stop. Am I correct here?

To recover you are required to place the throttle in idle and move the automatic brake handle to suppression - This is done while the train is still moving, or must you stop?

Suppression vs. continuous service - I take it this is the same thing. What exactly happens here?

BTW, getting back to the original question, should the independent brake force be increased when the 30 to 0 modification is made?

Rob

[BNSFdude]

Don't take anything I insert here as corrections, just clarifications or questions on how things differ between our operations. *you being shop understanding much more than I would, being TY&E.*

A lot of questions in this reply, hopefully I can answer them without causing too much confusion.

A PCS penalty application is caused by failing to acknowledge the alerter, it has nothing to do with a break apart, kicker, etc.
A Penalty, yes, is alerter, cab signal, or PTC tripped.
a penalty brake application will take place which causes the locomotive to drop it's load.
The penalty (a full service application), will trigger the PCS, which on GE engines causes load to drop to Notch 1, Idle for EMDs.
To recover you are required to place the throttle in idle and move the automatic brake handle to suppression (some railroads call it continuous service).
Out of curiosity, who calls Suppression C.S? We call CS Handle Off or Continuous Service because the positions are one in the same, which reduce brake pipe pressure to near zero at a service rate.

You cannot over ride a PCS once it's triggered,
If the PCS was triggered by emergency, this is true. But if it was a penalty application, you can put the ABV in Suppression to recover the PCS condition (and move throttle to idle), release, all on the fly and continue on your merry way.


When it comes to emergency brake applications, different locomotives react differently by design. Some will actually maintain throttle settings for 30 seconds before dropping the load, other will drop the load as soon as a emergency is trigger either by moving one of the brake handles or a break apart etc.

I can tell you one thing for sure, you can load a locomotive against it's brakes and I do it quite often for testing purposes. Some of the newer locomotives cannot be loaded if the hand brake is on, but that's a different question.

[Rich_S]

Don't take anything I insert here as corrections, just clarifications or questions on how things differ between our operations. *you being shop understanding much more than I would, being TY&E.*

A lot of questions in this reply, hopefully I can answer them without causing too much confusion.

A PCS penalty application is caused by failing to acknowledge the alerter, it has nothing to do with a break apart, kicker, etc.
A Penalty, yes, is alerter, cab signal, or PTC tripped.
a penalty brake application will take place which causes the locomotive to drop it's load.
The penalty (a full service application), will trigger the PCS, which on GE engines causes load to drop to Notch 1, Idle for EMDs.
To recover you are required to place the throttle in idle and move the automatic brake handle to suppression (some railroads call it continuous service).
Out of curiosity, who calls Suppression C.S? We call CS Handle Off or Continuous Service because the positions are one in the same, which reduce brake pipe pressure to near zero at a service rate.

You cannot over ride a PCS once it's triggered,
If the PCS was triggered by emergency, this is true. But if it was a penalty application, you can put the ABV in Suppression to recover the PCS condition (and move throttle to idle), release, all on the fly and continue on your merry way.


When it comes to emergency brake applications, different locomotives react differently by design. Some will actually maintain throttle settings for 30 seconds before dropping the load, other will drop the load as soon as a emergency is trigger either by moving one of the brake handles or a break apart etc.

I can tell you one thing for sure, you can load a locomotive against it's brakes and I do it quite often for testing purposes. Some of the newer locomotives cannot be loaded if the hand brake is on, but that's a different question.

We are going to get a little technical for a minute, so hang in their folks...

You cannot over ride a PCS once it's triggered,
If the PCS was triggered by emergency, this is true. But if it was a penalty application, you can put the ABV in Suppression to recover the PCS condition (and move throttle to idle), release, all on the fly and continue on your merry way.
A Emergency brake application is only caused by the brake pipe. A PCS never causes a Emergency and the only way to recover from an Emergency is to place the ABV in the Emergency position, usually 60 seconds recover time.
Now an Emergency brake application will open the PCS, so things do get a little blurred. Basically the train brake pipe becomes disconnected and you have an Emergency brake application. You don't answer the alerter or cab signal warning and you have a Penalty brake application.
A PCS causes a Penalty brake application, you can recover on the fly, but you are not over ridding the PCS you are just recovering from it before the train stops (8 to 10 seconds recover time) The event recorder will still indicate a PCS event showing speed, time, direction, etc. depending on the number of channels setup in the event recorder.

Out of curiosity, who calls Suppression C.S? We call CS Handle Off or Continuous Service because the positions are one in the same, which reduce brake pipe pressure to near zero at a service rate.
You are correct, a typo on my part. We call it handle off and some Western roads call it continuous service and yes, handle off reduces the brake pipe to zero at a service rate. Suppression is Suppression.

The penalty (a full service application), will trigger the PCS, which on GE engines causes load to drop to Notch 1, Idle for EMDs.
PCS is more than a full service application. Full service drops the brake pipe to 65 lbs. Below 65 lbs and you've equalized. A PCS drops the brake pipe below 65 lbs.
GE's are a little different, but that is because they have motor driven compressors. Basically it has to do with the CDC logic for the compressors and if the compressor runs at diesel engine RPM or double the diesel engine RPM, but we are starting to get off track

To answer another question, PCS stands for Pneumatic Control Switch. It's a pressure switch when opened removes the current flow through the PCR (Relay). Very basically locomotives are setup to control the negative side of a circuit. You want something to operate, the relay pickups to complete the path to negative. You want something to stop working, the relay opens removing the path to the negative side of the circuit. Very basically and without getting to technical, during a PCS event, when you do not respond to the alerter, the alerter times out and allows the PCS to open. When the PCS opens it takes away the negative from the PCR coil and when the PCR drops out a major part of the control circuit is opened.

I hope I answered everyone's questions?

[Rich_S]

Hi Rich:

BTW, getting back to the original question, should the independent brake force be increased when the 30 to 0 modification is made?

Rob

I did not increase the independent brake force and have not had any issues. But to be honest, in Rail Works since you cannot bail, I never use the independent, I always use the Automatic.

[Chacal]

I never use independent because the reduction doesn't show on any gauge or display, even the F5 hud, so there's no way of knowing how much you are applying.

[BNSFdude]

I never use independent because the reduction doesn't show on any gauge or display, even the F5 hud, so there's no way of knowing how much you are applying.

Drives me nuts how the most basic of functions of the Brake Cylinder gauge doesn't work in any way at all like the real thing.

[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

Some locomotive control stands work properly and have the brake cylinder pressure gauge set up correctly. Applying the independent brakes more than the automatic train brakes increases locomotive brake cylinder pressure. Note that there should be a maximum brake cylinder pressure, depending on type and number of brake shoes. Since there is no bail off programmed in the core game engine, one cannot release the locomotive brakes below train brake application. But running light engines or switching w/o air on the cars can now be done with the independent brake alone.

The engineer will have to guess brake cylinder pressure and hence retardation force in the train behind him by triple valve ratio: 1 psi reduction gives 2.5 psi in the cars' brake cylinders. Mininum service reduction is 6-8 psi, giving around 15 psi in the brake cylinders. Full service reduction is 26 psi, which gives the maximum brake cylinder pressure of about 65 psi. It depends on the brake rigging, fulcrum ratio and number and type of brake shoes on the cars how quickly it will retard and come to a stop without blocking the wheels.

It is up to the engineers skill and route knowledge to work the brakes to slow down and stop without blocking the wheels, stalling the train in an undesirable location or otherwise.
My understanding is, brake pipe reductions above 12-15 psi are seldom needed.

You can make the gauge work by editing the locomotive .bin file. Search for BrakeCylinderPressure in the <ControlValues> section, and make sure it reads LocoBrakeCylinderPressurePSI, i.e. change Train to Loco.
While editing the locomotive .bin file, put a sensible negative value in the Ammeter <MinimumValue> line, so the resistor grid current is properly displayed when in dynamic braking.
I.e. change 0 (zero) to something like minus 3/4 of the max current, or just input the minimum value from the amps gauge.

Using the <CylinderPressureForBrakeToCutPower> hack of the locomotive simulation .bin file mentioned above, you can load the locomotives against the still applied brakes, one I didn't know before.

These and other hacks are compulsory for me to give US locos a tad more realism in operation.
The list is growing ever longer.
I started changing the headlights setup so the rear headlight comes on dimly on single locomotives, light consists and pushers together with bright front headlights/ditchlights
I change the beams to far and narrow for the headlights and short and wide for the ditchlights, remove unwanted shadow casting, give bright headlights and ditchlights a small lensflare/corona effect.
Using some freeware MSTS soundsets, I add more and better sounds to the valves, switches and levers in the cab, to get some aural feedback when applying/releasing brakes. And oh my, is the sound setup so complicated by design or is it just me?

You'll have to hack all of your locomotives most likely, as many creators simply copy and paste from one project to the next, so their errors are persistent.

[Rich_S]

My responses are in red in the body of the quote. This is all good information that helps bring Rail Works a step closer to the real thing.

Some locomotive control stands work properly and have the brake cylinder pressure gauge set up correctly. Applying the independent brakes more than the automatic train brakes increases locomotive brake cylinder pressure. Note that there should be a maximum brake cylinder pressure, depending on type and number of brake shoes. Since there is no bail off programmed in the core game engine, one cannot release the locomotive brakes below train brake application. But running light engines or switching w/o air on the cars can now be done with the independent brake alone.

You are correct, basic rule of thumb, one brake shoe per wheel, 72 PSI, two brake shoes per wheel no more than 45 PSI

The engineer will have to guess brake cylinder pressure and hence retardation force in the train behind him by triple valve ratio: 1 psi reduction gives 2.5 psi in the cars' brake cylinders. Minimum service reduction is 6-8 psi, giving around 15 psi in the brake cylinders. Full service reduction is 26 psi, which gives the maximum brake cylinder pressure of about 65 psi. It depends on the brake rigging, fulcrum ratio and number and type of brake shoes on the cars how quickly it will retard and come to a stop without blocking the wheels.

It is up to the engineers skill and route knowledge to work the brakes to slow down and stop without blocking the wheels, stalling the train in an undesirable location or otherwise.
My understanding is, brake pipe reductions above 12-15 psi are seldom needed.

You can make the gauge work by editing the locomotive .bin file. Search for BrakeCylinderPressure in the <ControlValues> section, and make sure it reads LocoBrakeCylinderPressurePSI, i.e. change Train to Loco.
While editing the locomotive .bin file, put a sensible negative value in the Ammeter <MinimumValue> line, so the resistor grid current is properly displayed when in dynamic braking.
I.e. change 0 (zero) to something like minus 3/4 of the max current, or just input the minimum value from the amps gauge.

I've not seen the BrakeCylinderPressure in the <ControlValules> section hack until now, thank you. Dynamic Braking is another can or worms in Rail Works.
RSC has the value set way to high in the <DynamicBrakesSystem> <MaxForce statement

Using the <CylinderPressureForBrakeToCutPower> hack of the locomotive simulation .bin file mentioned above, you can load the locomotives against the still applied brakes, one I didn't know before.

These and other hacks are compulsory for me to give US locos a tad more realism in operation.
The list is growing ever longer.
I started changing the headlights setup so the rear headlight comes on dimly on single locomotives, light consists and pushers together with bright front headlights/ditchlights
I change the beams to far and narrow for the headlights and short and wide for the ditchlights, remove unwanted shadow casting, give bright headlights and ditchlights a small lensflare/corona effect.
Using some freeware MSTS soundsets, I add more and better sounds to the valves, switches and levers in the cab, to get some aural feedback when applying/releasing brakes. And oh my, is the sound setup so complicated by design or is it just me?

You'll have to hack all of your locomotives most likely, as many creators simply copy and paste from one project to the next, so their errors are persistent.

All very good hacks and like everything else, be sure to backup your hacks or the next update could wipe out all your hard work.