Railworks America

DTG has been very vague on the length of their Sandpatch Route. From MSTS and real life we know that the actual, whole Sandpatch line is 100 miles or so from Cumberland to Connellsville. But the developer diaries keep referencing "60, 70, 100-mile route," so which is it? On the Beta Developer Diary Matt says "along the full 60-mile length of Sandpatch grade" (yeah right, that is not the full length at all!) which means it does not end at Connellsville. But that also means it is violating one of the most fundamental premises of good route design: start the route somewhere significant, and also end the route at somewhere significant.

Where does it end? Hidden (probably intentionally so) in the comments of the Sand Patch Story Part 2 article is this comment from Train-Sim Steve: "The Sand Patch Grade route will feature Cumberland Yard at one end and Rockwood at the other." I feel like a lot of people do not realize that, and I feel like DTG does not want a lot of people to realize that (they seem to know that Cumberland to Connellsville is what we want, but at the same time have not provided what we want) because Cumberland to Rockwood is an impressively underwhelming and bad route from a route design perspective. For one thing, that is only about 50 miles, not 60 (false advertising, anyone?). For another thing, Rockwood is a very insignificant place, there is no big yard there, no big deal trains start or terminate there, there's no station around, trains don't normally stop there for any reason. The only special thing is a coal loader there, but coal is not the only thing that runs on the Sandpatch route. Which means that it is basically impossible to simulate a full shift on the railroad; scenarios will have to be prematurely terminated when you reach Rockwood or will have to be started unnaturally at Rockwood. It is impossible to have a scenario start at one yard and end at other because there is only one yard.

And to put this in perspective, this is the only route we will have for months, and it is tiny, with very limited scenario possibilities. Also, keep in mind that we will not have multiplayer at release, and it sounds like (not confirmed though) that the route editor will not be in the first release. (EDIT: it has been confirmed that the route editor will not be present at release) All that together is making the February release of TSW sound like a very unfinished and non-engaging game that everyone everywhere will be bored of within weeks.

So, just keep in mind that if you are getting TSW, you are not getting all of Sandpatch grade or all of the features that will eventually come from TSW: TSW is more of an investment than a purchase.

Hopefully, Sandpatch it is just the beginning and DTG makes other routes. I agree, one route and no editor would get boring fast.

I guess you don't remember the original Maple Leaf Track Sand Patch route for MSTS - it was Cumberland to Rockwood, too. Adding Rockwood to Connellsville would just about double the length of the route. According to B&O/C&O track charts:

- Viaduct Junction MP 272.7
- Rockwood MP 321.1 (48.4 miles)
- Connellsville MP 364.4 (43.3 miles)

S&C Branch (From Rockwood to)
- Somerset MP 9.2
- Stoyestown MP 21.8
- Holsopple MP 32.0

Maybe their claim regarding length of route includes Cumberland Yard and S&C Branch
chris

IIRC, there was little if anything between Rockwood and Connellsville - a pretty sterile run, IMHO. At least from Cumberland to Rockwood, you have a couple of branchline and tipple possibilities, not to mention the WM bridge crossing. We'll just have to wait and see what we get.

Hack wrote:IIRC, there was little if anything between Rockwood and Connellsville - a pretty sterile run, IMHO.

All the more reason to add that part of the route on: it would be easy to do. I say that because the excuse Matt Peddlesden provided is that a hypothetical TS1 version of Sandpatch would go to Connellsville, but TSW did not because they were not acquainted to the world building tools and they were adding extra detail compared to usual which would make adding more to the route take longer; they aren't worried about it being boring to drive. In fact, I think it would be more boring to drive Cumberland to Rockwood twice than it would be to drive Cumberland to Connellsville once.

Yeesh. I hope this doesn't end up being another Microsoft Flight. I could grudgingly accept a truncated route, but if multiplayer and editor functionality isn't going to be there at release, then there's no way I'm buying TSW until they're included.

Hell, if the trains handle as poorly as they did in their beta, the shorter experience may be a blessing.

katyusha454 wrote:Yeesh. I hope this doesn't end up being another Microsoft Flight. I could grudgingly accept a truncated route, but if multiplayer and editor functionality isn't going to be there at release, then there's no way I'm buying TSW until they're included.

Thing is, as far as I can tell, DTG will be OK with that. They seem to (rightfully so) expect that there are going to be a lot of people who will not buy until there is a route in 'country X' or until 'feature X' is added. They also seem to expect that those who do buy it won't be playing it exclusively and will jump around between TSW and TS17. That's probably the worst part of this: DTG doesn't care that the route is not long enough to be consistently interesting, because they don't expect anyone to be consistently interested in it!

BNSFdude wrote:Hell, if the trains handle as poorly as they did in their beta, the shorter experience may be a blessing.

How bad we talk'n?

Hey, let TSW come out for a week, have a few users run it and report back to us. Your speculations of what it might be are very tiring and complete guesses.
Lets see if all the complaints from the beta are addressed and fixed.

It's harder to predict the sky is falling after the fact. Better to speculate wildly based on "hidden" statements made in publicly released articles. Everyone knows DTG is secretly out to bore us all to death. It's their get rich quick scheme. Luckily, posts like this help keep morons like us from paying good money for something we want in advance of actually knowing what it is and before it is even possible. Public service.

dejoh wrote:Hey, let TSW come out for a week, have a few users run it and report back to us. Your speculations of what it might be are very tiring and complete guesses.
Lets see if all the complaints from the beta are addressed and fixed.

This is why DTG doesn't have to get better, dissent is stifled.

On the N3V forums the members of the asylum can say anything they want about Trainz.

Howling and whining are the only way to get a game improved, not polite fanboy talk.

Harold

TSW is very different to TSxxxx and I'm not sure what I would class as easy regarding routes in TSW just yet.
However, looking forward to all the feedback, don't mind if it is positive, or negative as long as it is constructive.
which means 'Howling and whining' is fine as long as it is constructive.
;)

d

hminky wrote:

dejoh wrote:Hey, let TSW come out for a week, have a few users run it and report back to us. Your speculations of what it might be are very tiring and complete guesses.
Lets see if all the complaints from the beta are addressed and fixed.

This is why DTG doesn't have to get better, dissent is stifled.

On the N3V forums the members of the asylum can say anything they want about Trainz.

Howling and whining are the only way to get a game improved, not polite fanboy talk.

Harold

However we will be polite here. If not posts will be censored. Fanboy talk is just fine also. Apparently some of us are a lot happier than others and everyone is entitled to a opinion as long as we keep it constructive and civil.

Hack wrote:IIRC, there was little if anything between Rockwood and Connellsville - a pretty sterile run, IMHO. At least from Cumberland to Rockwood, you have a couple of branchline and tipple possibilities, not to mention the WM bridge crossing. We'll just have to wait and see what we get.

Mark,
Really depends on the era of the route. Most of the coal branches were dormant by the early 1960s- either worked out or shut down due to declining demand. There were few mines along the Pittsburg & Cumberland (the actual corporate name of the B&O route roughly from Viaduct Junction to Connellsville). Virtually all coal mines and coke ovens were on three branches: S&C, branches south from Confluence, and branch north from Garrett (B&RP)

In the mid 1980s, C&O shut down the Connellsville yard as unnecessary due to pre-blocking and unit trains becoming the norm. Today the route is a low grade through line from the Midwest to the Northeast. Not much happening on the line itself.
chris