BNSF Licensing

[Crestone]

So the logos etc on N gauge and HO models are not the same IP? Some double standards are afoot methinks and have been for some time. Anyway it matters not what we think cause it ain’t gonna change. I’m still subscribing to the camels or if oversubscribed put me on the waiting list.

That, I do not know for sure. From experience, I do know that IP in the "digital domain" is often treated differently than in the "real world". Broadly speaking, it often enjoys less protection and that may have factored into BNSF/BH thinking.

Jeff

[Crestone]

All this still doesn't address the question of why they are opposite of all of the other railroad companies. Bye the way I'm old but not fat.

I dropped a little weight, but have a bit more to go. So, I guess I'm almost fat, but definitely old now too! LOL. I think the other RR companies are probably making a mistake, but hopefully one they won't have to regret. Not everyone can afford the same lawyers Warren can, I guess.

[buzz456]

I'd like to think they are more PR adept and less arrogant than BH but call me crazy.

[Crestone]

I might want to call you for some Railworks help, but never crazy.

[jalsina]

A lot of discussions have been posted along the last four years in the Steam forum, about the BNSF restrictions for Train Simulator outside USA.
We have to remember however, that other train simulators like TRAINZ and the older MSTS have not had any kind of trouble to use and sell BNSF logo items anywhere in the world. To this we have to add other train products like scale models.
I believe the problem of this licensing is just between BNSF and DTG.

[BNSFdude]

There is no issue with JR's licensing either.

[ForceGhost]

I asked the BNSF licensing folks, two different ones actually, why their logos could not be sold in other countries. No explanation was given, just a robotic repeat of what they had said before "BNSF licensed products cannot be produced or sold outside of U.S. borders". I could imagine asking fifty more times and getting the same answer each time. I dont think their lawyers even know why.

Oh, let's mention UP's absurd expectation to have an individual to sign an agreement that they will give their logoed products away for free instead of selling them.

If I had it all to do over again, I'd take a chance on a cease-and-desist letter before I'd go through copyright permission again. Better to ask forgives, right?

[GreatNortherner]

All this still doesn't address the question of why they are opposite of all of the other railroad companies. Bye the way I'm old but not fat.

Buzz, sadly, that's not quite true. BNSF is surely the most visible case of "denied licensing", but there are more cases. The B&M and the B&LE trademarks are also affected, and that's a worldwide and not just "outside of the US" restriction. So we can add two more parent companies to the list with BH/BNSF -- and who knows, there may be more cases where licensing was denied but it happened before a project was even started or announced.

I don't think any of our complaints (or "petitions", as have been suggested on the Steam forums) will change anything. Maybe it would be different if US railroads were still in the business of passenger transportation and would thus rely more on a positive image and good PR among loyal (rail) fans to aid with customer relations, but I highly doubt any of the freight shippers will even notice if a bunch of train enthusiasts complain and shout.

If I had it all to do over again, I'd take a chance on a cease-and-desist letter before I'd go through copyright permission again. Better to ask forgives, right?

That approach may work for a small independent operator, but I doubt a multi-million $ company like DTG would ever (let alone ought to) take that risk.

Cheers
Michael

[ElphabaWS]

Your points are all absolutely spot-on Michael. There are a number of regional-sized railroads and commuter-operators that have chosen not to become involved at all in licensing. Not to mention any number of international rail companies. "Petitions" and the like run as much or more chance of angering/annoying the recipients as resulting in positive change. DTG is to be credited with taking the high road on licensing rather than playing fast and loose with licensing requirements (as do some).

Crestone's above-posted comments (of Feb. 27) are a near-perfect assessment of the realities involved here.

[trev123]

Correct me if I'm wrong but how come Trainz can still use the BNSF logos and other ones like Santa Fe?

[AmericanSteam]

Correct me if I'm wrong but how come Trainz can still use the BNSF logos and other ones like Santa Fe?

There are so many things pertaining to this conundrum that we do not know. At this moment it is all speculation and although there are some very plausable reasons given it is only the guys and gals behind the big oak doors and those in suits that carry briefcases who really know.

[dr1980]

I seem to remember reading a while ago that the issue was that they had failed to renew their trademark on BNSF outside the US around the time we started seeing the restrictions on BNSF content. Another similarly named, large international company (BASF?) had scooped up the trademark as it was close to their own and BNSF can no longer get it back.

If this is indeed what happened, kinda embarrassing for BNSF and might explain their reluctance to say anything useful on the subject.

[buzz456]

I seem to remember reading a while ago that the issue was that they had failed to renew their trademark on BNSF outside the US around the time we started seeing the restrictions on BNSF content. Another similarly named, large international company (BASF?) had scooped up the trademark as it was close to their own and BNSF can no longer get it back.

If this is indeed what happened, kinda embarrassing for BNSF and might explain their reluctance to say anything useful on the subject.

That makes the most sense of anything I have seen so far. After the better part of fifty years of dealing with these types is rule #1 Never admit you were wrong. Rule #2 Refer to rule number one.

[dr1980]

Here’s a thread that references that theory

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14547&p=166380&hilit=Basf#p166380

[Crestone]

Here’s a thread that references that theory

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14547&p=166380&hilit=Basf#p166380

This is most definitely not the case. A quick search of EUIPO's database shows that BNSF has dozens of trademarks registered in the EU alone. This is public info available online to anyone.