Tractive Effort vs Speed for F59PHI

[decook1110]

I've just picked up the Surfliner route to work on some train performance work for hybrid passenger trains.

I've started working on customizing the F59 and I'm getting into the Tractive effort vs speed, tractive effort vs throttle and dynamic braking vs speed CSV tables.

The tractive effort vs speed is definitely not right, I've put the figures below
MPH - ???? - Eq HP
0 - 289.1-
16.1 - 170.1- 7303
20 - 168.0- 8960
30 - 166.5- 13320
40 - 165.0- 17600
50 - 163.5- 21800
60 - 162.0- 25920
70 - 160.5- 29960
80 - 159.0- 33920
90 - 157.5- 37800
100 - 156.0- 41600
110 - 154.5- 45320

I'm assuming first column is mph as its a passenger locomotive. The second column I assume is tractive effort, is that pounds?? If so its twice the tractive effort of an SD40 at 14 mph. If its kN then its a little under half.

In the last column I calculate equivalent HP if the generator and traction motors were 100% efficient.

Further the TE drops too slowly with 170 units at 16 mph and still 154.5 units at 110 mph.

I only have the F59 locomotive with the surfliner route, do other locomotives in TS2014 have TE vs speed tables this off?

Am I not interpreting these right?

Thanks

Dave

[BNSFdude]

I set up the F59PHI to have a proper accel rate based on figures I received from an Amtrak Engineer out in CA who runs the train on a bi-daily basis.
Doing so required me to fudge a few numbers because of shoddy calculations within Railworks' core.
The F59PHI has a starting tractive effort of 65,000 lbs with nominal adhesion of 25% (DC motor limitation), and max continuous tractive effort 38,240 lbs @ 16.1 mph.
The unit of choice iirc is kN, and the transmission efficiency is 87%. A Dash 9 is 89% efficient, while an AC4400 or ES44AC is 93%.

[NorthernWarrior]

Just picked this up along with Surfliner in the sale. Constructive criticism follows:

From my layman's point of view, acceleration seems about right but do these things really power cruise along in Notch 1 or 2 at 65 MPH? (The Baldwin Centipede suffers from the same problem).

However the braking on the F59 seems way too harsh. Setting an 8% reduction (why can't we either have proper set and lap or stepped brakes) dumped 40lb of air, so there is absolutely no fine control at all, if you just want to feather the speed a bit. This is further aggravated by ironically the realistic slow release which means by the time you recover the train is way below your target speed. So IMHO the brake performance definitely needs backing off a bit, if we are stuck with the % system then that needs to be calibrated across the complete range of pressure reduction.

[arizonachris]

Braking is also very different depending on simple or expert controls. They actually seem to work better in simple mode, which combines throttle and brake. Plus sometimes they don't release from stop. You have to hit them twice to get them to release, and it's slow.

[BNSFdude]

Just picked this up along with Surfliner in the sale. Constructive criticism follows:

From my layman's point of view, acceleration seems about right but do these things really power cruise along in Notch 1 or 2 at 65 MPH? (The Baldwin Centipede suffers from the same problem).

However the braking on the F59 seems way too harsh. Setting an 8% reduction (why can't we either have proper set and lap or stepped brakes) dumped 40lb of air, so there is absolutely no fine control at all, if you just want to feather the speed a bit. This is further aggravated by ironically the realistic slow release which means by the time you recover the train is way below your target speed. So IMHO the brake performance definitely needs backing off a bit, if we are stuck with the % system then that needs to be calibrated across the complete range of pressure reduction.

Hit F5, you'll find the values to be fine, its a gauge glitch that came with TS14 and afflicts all DLC after it.
The issue with the brakes for the F59 and its trainset is the fact that the cars and the locomotives have both 'triple valve' and 'graduated release' ticked for the train brakes, which makes them 100% full force or no brake force.*

*Something I fixed, mind you, and didnt get changed for final release.

[Ericmopar]

I haven't looked into the bin files for that loco or it's stock that comes with it, but what I am consistently running into in RW/TS bin files for simulation and car physics, is things like "proportional braking" set to eFalse rather than eTrue. I see the same for tripple valves.
That's besides pressures in the cylinders and max pressure etc that are way off. I've seen cars and locos with 100 psi cylinder pressures and progressive brake control set to eFalse.

That will pretty much set them to emergency by default.

[NorthernWarrior]

Something I fixed, mind you, and didnt get changed for final release.

Shame we can't get Dovetail to put out some updates as this would enhance what is otherwise a superb route offering.

Oh well, guess it's into scenario editor and put together something with a Class 37 or 33 (or heaven forbid the Class 221 Voyager) to sample the route.

[Chacal]

The issue with the brakes for the F59 and its trainset is the fact that the cars and the locomotives have both 'triple valve' and 'graduated release' ticked for the train brakes, which makes them 100% full force or no brake force.*

What values are they supposed to be?

I'm confused because as I compare the F59's simulation blueprint to others that work correctly, I see the reverse.
F59 has "graduated release" = false and "triple valve"= true
SD40-2 Wn has true and true.
P42DC has true and true.
F40PH has true and true.

For the passenger cars,
Surfliner has true and true
GTrax's lightweights have false and false
HSC's P70 has true and false
Superliners have true and true.

I can't make heads or tails with this info!!!

[Ericmopar]

My F40PH was set "true" "true" but some of the Super Liner cars weren't!
The Triple Valve and Proportional braking have to be set to eTrue in both cases in my experience.
I also find horrible pressure settings all the time. Sometimes maximum force for wheel cylinders is 100+ psi. Line pressures of over 100psi etc.

Even when the engines in one of my newly purchased DLCs is okay, the cars usually have braking bugs in at least one if not all under Freight and Passenger folders.
I now check them before driving, because brake settings being wrong in bin and simulation files is rampant.
I actually have more than the Dash 9s that I could upload bin files for.

From what I'm reading here, it sounds like someone started with the F40PH simulation file for use in the F59PHi.
I should add. I have noticed real engineers do seem to have to feather the throttle off and on when traveling at speeds around 10mph in yards on level track, but I dont' know at what speed that changes.

I also noticed something in a in cab video once. At least some American engines seem to have a high and low speed "range" switch, that affects the power curve at the throttle. I don't have any idea how common that is though.

[Ericmopar]

What values are they supposed to be?

I'm confused because as I compare the F59's simulation blueprint to others that work correctly, I see the reverse.
F59 has "graduated release" = false and "triple valve"= true
SD40-2 Wn has true and true.
P42DC has true and true.
F40PH has true and true.

For the passenger cars,
Surfliner has true and true
GTrax's lightweights have false and false
HSC's P70 has true and false
Superliners have true and true.

I can't make heads or tails with this info!!!

That brings up my first braking disaster that I discovered. The bin files in the G-Trax Lightweight Passenger cars are way off.
They do need to be set eTrue, eTrue. That and I remember the pressure settings were off as well.
The SP SD45 from DTM has issues along the same lines.

You can't make heads or tails from it, because it's scrambled from bin to bin, even in the same DLC pack you won't necessarily find consistent brake settings.

[Chacal]

So both settings should be set to true for engines and cars?
I tried setting it for the F59PHI and it didn't change anything in the braking. Still 40 PSI as soon as you touch the brake.

I also noticed something in a in cab video once. At least some American engines seem to have a high and low speed "range" switch, that affects the power curve at the throttle. I don't have any idea how common that is though.

Wouldn't that be the hump speed control for yard switchers?

[Ericmopar]

You may have to clear the cache for the PSL route.
It could also be that there are notorious pressure settings at work. wrong minimum and maximum pressures in one or more spots.

Unfortunately I don't own the PSL, so I can't look for myself and give you a report.

[Ericmopar]

Yes, eTrue, eTrue, for engines and cars. Are you sure you're looking at the right braking blueprint?
There are usually three for the engine. Engine brake, Train brake, Handbrake.
cars usually have two. Train brake or Train air brake, hand brake.

[Ericmopar]

Getting back to topic.

Check this out. (Warning, may make brain explode!)
http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/hp_te.htm