Railworks DOESN'T use AMD Crossfire effectively and isn't alone.

[GSkid]

So I've had my new laptop for almost 2 months. I am a video game console gamer mainly and rarely play PC games anymore. I bought it SPECIFICALLY to run my train sims. It's specs are below in my signature. I bought this setup on a budget and went with a dual-core CPU cuz Railworks doesn't really seem to take full advantage of multi-core like it should from what I've read on the forums. So my emphasis on a budget was towards graphics and to have a CPU that ran at least 2.8GHz (mine is 3.2GHz in turbo mode). I did this cuz I've gathered on the net that RW's framerates are more improved with GPU power then CPU power. MSTS was the complete opposite.

So AMD has dual-graphics and Crossfire in their laptop products. Crossfire is when two GPUs work together to render graphics similar to Nvidia's SLI technology. Dual-Graphics has kinda two meanings depending on the context. In it's normal context..... it means the laptop uses the integrated graphics processor packed next to the CPU for programs that don't need a lot of GPU horsepower such as watching videos, web browsing and games like solitaire. It also lowers the CPU speed. Both of these steps are to reduce power consumption on a battery and heat as well. This still allows you to play 3D games or other programs, but at reduced quality or framerates. That's the cost of playing 3D games on battery power. it's called POWER SAVING mode by AMD.

But if you want to use a more powerful installed discreet graphics chip when you are plugged into an outlet OR simply don't care about battery life... it can be set to HIGH PERFORMANCE mode. It also kicks the CPU into TURBO mode.

But here is where it gets different. If you have it set to HIGH PERFORMANCE mode on a laptop with an Intel CPU (i3-i5-i7), it turns OFF the Intel's HD 3000/4000 IGP and runs the dedicated AMD graphics card you have installed exclusively. BUT... if the CPU is an AMD processor with RADEON graphics cores built into it, it will COMBINE the power of it's cores with the RADEON cores in the dedicated AMD graphics card since they share the same basic architecture. That's an advantage AMD does have in the graphics department since Intel doesn't know how to make a good GPU to save it's life despite it's skill at making CPUs.

So my AMD Trinity-class APU A6-4400M combines the 192 RADEON cores of it's HD 7520G IGP (which seems to steal 512MB of my system RAM for it's use) with the 480 cores of my 1GB AMD HD 7670M dedicated card for a total of 672 RADEON cores.

BUT.... I found out it ONLY uses both GPUs at the SAME TIME if the program you are running SUPPORTS crossfire. How did I figure this out on my own? I ran AMD's resource manager program in the background while playing Railworks. This program graphs out the processor load of both the CPU cores as well as the IGP and dedicated-GPU chip loads as well. And when I ran Railworks I was shocked to find out that it uses MAINLY the dedicated GPU...... with the CPU's IGP chipping in a measly 5%-15% load towards the effort only here and there. Certainly not constantly. I tried a few recent game and program demos from Batman: Arkham City to X-Plane 10 at MAX settings. They all used mainly the dedicated GPU with the IGP throwing only a pocket change level of GPU power towards the cause.

THEN I played the Metro 2033 demo and BOY what a difference it made!!!! It had the IGP contributing at times neck and neck with the dedicated GPU card in both load level and how often it was utilized. I used 3DMark 11 and it also used both together effectively. The Heaven DX11 and Cinebench benchmark programs only really used the dedicated GPU card for the most part.

So while I'm pretty darn happy with my dedicated GPU's performance in Railworks, it would be really nice if I could use it in crossfire mode like it should to make it just that much better. I'm sure people here already knew of this, but this is my first multi-GPU setup. I wasn't aware the program somehow had to support it. Either that or AMD's drivers aren't consistently doing crossfire depending on the program. I read one post that said DirectX 9 doesn't support crossfire, although I'm not sure if that's true or not. I'm gonna keep trying more demos to see what other programs aren't using crossfire effectively for the heck of it.

I'm not sure if two Radeon GPU cards in Crossfire mode on desktop setups have the same problem as on the mobile platform. Here's hoping for more Crossfire support in the future!

[dfcfu342]

You are correct in your findings. AMD must write a crossfire driver extension specifically for TS2013 for it to be utilized, otherwise it will default to the dedicated card. Considering the proverbial drop in a bucket that crossfire wanting TS2013 users are compared to the entire population of crossfire owners, it will never happen.

[GSkid]

You are correct in your findings. AMD must write a crossfire driver extension specifically for TS2013 for it to be utilized, otherwise it will default to the dedicated card. Considering the proverbial drop in a bucket that crossfire wanting TS2013 users are compared to the entire population of crossfire owners, it will never happen.

After some research you are correct. It needs a profile or you are forced to do it manually by using AFR-Alternate Frame Rendering. I tried AFR with Railworks and it was a disaster. A look at the resource manager shows that indeed it was working in Crossfire mode, but the graph showed a saw wave pattern for the IGP while the dedicated GPU card was a pretty high and stayed on a even keel load wise. That means it wasn't consistently using the IGP at full load.

But the screen looked bad. There was flickering of a lot of the text on menus and on the hud. Also when I made my test run on Donner Pass, whole tree lines (most of the forest) and some other objects kept flickering in and out of existence. When I started moving the train, weird psychedelic stretched textures appeared in the sky. When I was on the front of the train (basically first person mode), all I saw was track ballast textures flashing across my screen on and off

I also tried the alternate AFR mode called "Optimize 1x1" that says optimizes for 1x1 resources. They say try this mode if regular AFR doesn't work. The result? Nothing!! It acted like I was in default settings. No flickering or weird textures across the sky, but a look at the resource manager showed it wasn't in crossfire mode like AFR was. The IGP stayed pretty much unused.

So needless to say.... crossfire won't be helping me in Railworks. Lucky for me the dedicated GPU card runs RW 2013 very nicely with everything on MAX settings, TSX-ON and full screen. So I'll be alright.

I also found out on the web that in order to take advantage of crossfire, you must play the supported game in FULL SCREEN mode. That's how I found out Batman:AC is supported. It was on the profile list, but it wasn't in crossfire mode when I had the game windowed. Trying it again in full screen mode, the AMD resource manager graph confirmed it was now using both GPUs.The weird thing is that the free flight sim "Microsoft Flight" is listed as supported in the AMD profiles. But playing the game in full screen or otherwise showed on the graph that it was NOT in crossfire mode. The game runs very well at max settings even without it. But I just find it odd it's not taking advantage when there is in fact a supported profile for it.

The list of crossfire supported profiles is OK, but I expected a wider breadth of supported titles. It at least has some of the biggest titles like Battlefield 3 and so on..... but should be bigger. So I likely won't get a ton of use out of it. Then there's the balancing issue. I'm guessing the fact my GPUs aren't the same chip (IGP's 192 cores VS. the dedicated GPU's 480 cores), would cause load balancing issues and increased micro-stutter.

Oddly... every scanning program for GPUs says my setup has 3 GPUs and not just two. I have no idea why. I've not read anything saying that my dedicated card has 2 GPUs on it. Just plain weird!

Oh well... it was worth a try!

[wackyhuman]

> BUT.... I found out it ONLY uses both GPUs at the SAME TIME if the program you are running SUPPORTS crossfire.

Yep, that is the case. I used to run a combination like that and never found a real use for it other than with some AMD supported games. And since RW2013 is an Nvidia favoring product, changes are it will never happen.

[GSkid]

> BUT.... I found out it ONLY uses both GPUs at the SAME TIME if the program you are running SUPPORTS crossfire.

Yep, that is the case. I used to run a combination like that and never found a real use for it other than with some AMD supported games. And since RW2013 is an Nvidia favoring product, changes are it will never happen.

Yeah crossfire won't get much use from me unless a predefined profile kicks in automatically for the said title,

I found out on the HP website that crossfire mode doesn't work with DirectX 9, but is supported by 10 & 11. Although I for the heck of it tried AFR on the Battlestations Pacific demo (says it requires DX9) and other than a slight flicker if you spin the camera around real fast, it ran fine. BUT... it wasn't long after that my computer started having problems. I was gonna delete the profile I made for it and play it normal to compare framerates. But AMD's Catalyst Control Center (CCC) would no longer let me delete the profile nor let me make any new ones. SO I downloaded the latest Catalyst software and installed it. The result? DISASTER!! I was no longer able to do Dual-graphics. The option was no longer available anywhere.

Then I played Railworks and the dedicated GPU was FLAT LINE! It was only using the IGP. Every program I tried would only use the IGP. So I panicked and download a older version of CCC and still had no dual-graphics options....BUT... my programs started using the dedicated GPU again.

So I went to the AMD's supprt forums and found out some things. They say AMD no longer supports crossfire for laptops in their latest versions of drivers. They said to go to the HP website and download the drivers for my specific laptop. I did so and everything is BACK TO NORMAL!!!

I'm not sure why AMD dropped support for it for laptops. Seems like a step backwards. Anyways... Unless there is a compelling reason with a particular program to try crossfire on my own, I'm not tempting fate anymore and leaving things as they are. I even saved the drivers to a USB stick for safe keeping JUST IN CASE!! My dedicated GPU is plenty powerful enough to play train sims at max settings with good framerates. That's good enough for me!!

[arizonachris]

To the best of my knowledge, both ATI (AMD) and Nvidia require you to go direct to the laptop maker's website for video drivers. Maybe ATI just changed, but with Nvidia it's been quite few years.

Reason for this, from what I have read anyways, is that most laptop makers customize drivers, sometimes heavily. Sound drivers, too. Glad to see you got it fixed, GSkid.

[GSkid]

To the best of my knowledge, both ATI (AMD) and Nvidia require you to go direct to the laptop maker's website for video drivers. Maybe ATI just changed, but with Nvidia it's been quite few years.

Reason for this, from what I have read anyways, is that most laptop makers customize drivers, sometimes heavily. Sound drivers, too. Glad to see you got it fixed, GSkid.

Thanks! Although my laptop isn't fully fixed like I thought. The predefined profile list that used to be in the CCC before the issues is still not back. When you choose it, the list is blank. But it seems the profiles are there invisibly cuz the programs that it supports that I've tried (the exception being Microsoft Flight) go into crossfire mode like they are supposed to. Although in the laptop realm it's called "Dual Graphics" by AMD and is similar, but not the exactly the same as crossfire is my understanding. Not sure of the technical differences.

I think I MISSPOKE in my last earlier post. It's not that AMD dropped crossfire (dual graphics) support on laptops, AMD said that they don't support "switchable graphics". That's when there is a list of programs that you setup as either always in power saving mode or set to high performance mode. Basically setting up if the laptop is in normal CPU speed/using the IGP OR having the CPU in turbo mode/use the dedicated GPU on a program by program basis, That's where HP's customizing came in. You are right.... it would seem laptop makers DO customize a lot of their drivers.

I just hope AMD survives. They just announced a new round of layoffs! I prefer AMD to Intel for a few reasons. I know Intel makes better CPUs. But the amount more money you have to pay to get that extra power isn't worth it to me. That's why I like AMD's bang for the buck better. You get decent power on the cheap. I also want to support Intel's direct competitor cuz if AMD is gone, Intel will really raise their already high prices even higher. Plus AMD's built-in GPUs are much better then Intel's HD 3000/4000 series. I find it amazing that Intel can make such good CPUs and yet suck when they try to make GPUs. Makes no sense.

[GSkid]

Well just an UPDATE to kinda tie up loose ends up as they say.

Although I was able to get my dedicated GPU working again by downloading and installing the graphic driver for my specific laptop, it wouldn't still let me save my switchable graphics profiles nor would they work. So I couldn't force railworks to play using the IGP instead of the dedicated GPU if I chose to do so. The only way was to go on battery power. I kinda figured out what I did wrong. Out of IGNORANCE I went and downloaded the latest AMD Catalyst Control Center 12.8 from AMD's website shortly after getting my laptop......not knowing that they recommend you stick with your drivers provided for your specific laptop by the manufacturer. And when the problems popped up later, apparently reinstalling the right drivers wasn't enough. I suspect some of the extra 12.8 residual stuff remained afterwards so that it wasn't fully fixed.

So... I decided to do the factory restore to return it the state it was when I first got my laptop. NOW everything is back to normal. But I got an unexpected PLEASANT SURPRISE. When I ran railworks, it ran smoother with a little bit higher framerate. I also ran the Metro 2033 demo in crossfire mode again and it ran much MUCH smother at max DX11 settings now. No more jerkiness of frames like before. I also downloaded the Dirt 2 demo just cuz it was supported by Crossfire. The result? At max settings the in-game benchmark tool saw only a 2fps increase over my dedicated GPU and 8fps increase over the IGP. But at the lowest settings I saw as much as a 30fps increase over the dedicated GPU and a whopping 49fps increase over the IGP. I've seen in tests on the net before that showed the law of diminishing at max settings in games between IGP only - GPU only - and both in crossfire. Having my GPU being at least 3x-4x more powerful then the IGP hurts things in crossfire with load balancing. Two GPUs of the same chip helps considerably with this.

So the moral of the story is..........if you buy a laptop, ONLY download updated drivers from your manufacturer for your specific laptop. THANKS to those that responded. I appreciate it!!!