Possible bad copy of FEF3???

[mikeg1250]

I'm not sure if I may possibly have a bad copy of the FEF3 or just am the first to notice this....

Today, I attempted to take a QD consist (844 + 12 Cars) over HSC thinking it would be a great challenge. As it turns out, the engine flew (30MPH+) up the mountain!!! Admittedly, I sill need to do some more research on the tractive-effort of the FEF, but I am very familiar with this stretch of railroad and KNOW that this locomotive shouldn't be able to charge up this hill almost effortlessly! Back in 2012, NKP 765 had a similar consist and was down to 11MPH at the Curve.

What is more concerning (and what makes me think I have a bad copy of the FEF) is that once open, the throttle seems to have zero affect on the amount of power being put to the rail. From anywhere just past 1/8th open all the way to full throttle, the engine accelerated the same exact way. The regulator % remained at 97%, and steam usage stayed the same. The only thing that seemed to affect the usage or pulling power/acceleration was adjusting the reverser. About 1/2 way up the mountain, I backed the throttle down to just above the closed point and watched as the back pressure gauge climbed from 5 to above 30 in a matter of about 5 seconds. The engine never slowed and steam usage stayed exactly the same. While I understand that this model has highly sophisticated lua's to create a more realistic sim and thus the values displayed in the HUD or F5 read out may be irrelevant, I know the engine should not perform the same whether at 10% or 100% throttle!

Is anyone else experiencing this same effect?

2014-12-04_00002.jpg

2014-12-04_00003.jpg

[buzz456]

Something is definitely amiss. It doesn't behave like you describe.

[XDriver]

You got me thinking on this one. My throttle doesn't seem to do much either. Something new goin on? I have more effect using the reverser for power.

[mikeg1250]

Glad I'm not the only one. The shame of it is, it's an awesome model! I think it exactly what TS2015 needs more of!!!

...hopeful Smokebox can shed some light on things.

[buzz456]

If I try to start with more than about 15-20% on the throttle I get major wheel slippage with a load. Do you guys?

[mikeg1250]

If I try to start with more than about 15-20% on the throttle I get major wheel slippage with a load. Do you guys?

That part is prototypical...I will say thought, the actual slip is a little more violent than what you would get in reality.

[trev123]

You even get wheel slippage with the loco just by itself quite easily. I put the sanders on before I move off now.

[XDriver]

Did some testing. Yes the wheels will spin at little regulator with reverser at 50% on slippery track. But... Regulator just off fully closed comes into play but from off idle to full, there is no difference. Has no effect. Just like stated in first post. It's either on or off. No adjustment. From 15% to 100% makes no different in steam usage at all or power gain.

[mrennie]

Nothing is broken. What you are seeing is the extremely advanced simulation provided by the Advanced (non-HUD) version. It's all explained in detail on pages 34-38 of the manual (if memory serves me well).

The "regulator" value in the HUDs is not the physical position of the throttle lever. It's an indication of the amount of steam in the "real" steam chest. When you open the throttle, even if you only crack it open, steam passes from the boiler, through the throttle valve ports, into the steam chest (which is everything between the throttle ports and the cylinder valve admission ports, including the superheater tubing). If the locomotive is standing still, the steam chest will fill up and "regulator" will reach close to 100% (not quite, because I also simulate condensation in the steam chest). When the locomotive starts to move and the cylinder valve admission ports open, the steam passes from the steam chest into the cylinders and "regulator" falls a corresponding amount (depends on the amount of cut-off and the speed of the pistons, and more if the cylinder cocks are open). The back pressure gauge is a measure of the pressure in the cylinders, so as steam enters from the steam chest, it goes up, and as the steam expands and exhausts, it goes down.

The brake positions shown in the HUDs, when using the Advanced version, are not the physical positions of the brake handles. They actually give you a bit of insight into how the Advanced version achieves it's extremely high-fidelity behaviour of the air brakes (the most realistic on any TS locomotive bar none).

Basically, when running the Advanced version, you should ignore the information in the HUDs, unless you've read the manual and understand what that information is telling you, and that some of it is not the same as what you're used to on other locomotives.

[mrennie]

I'm not sure if I may possibly have a bad copy of the FEF3 or just am the first to notice this....

Today, I attempted to take a QD consist (844 + 12 Cars) over HSC thinking it would be a great challenge. As it turns out, the engine flew (30MPH+) up the mountain!!! Admittedly, I sill need to do some more research on the tractive-effort of the FEF, but I am very familiar with this stretch of railroad and KNOW that this locomotive shouldn't be able to charge up this hill almost effortlessly! Back in 2012, NKP 765 had a similar consist and was down to 11MPH at the Curve.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

What is more concerning (and what makes me think I have a bad copy of the FEF) is that once open, the throttle seems to have zero affect on the amount of power being put to the rail. From anywhere just past 1/8th open all the way to full throttle, the engine accelerated the same exact way. The regulator % remained at 97%, and steam usage stayed the same. The only thing that seemed to affect the usage or pulling power/acceleration was adjusting the reverser. About 1/2 way up the mountain, I backed the throttle down to just above the closed point and watched as the back pressure gauge climbed from 5 to above 30 in a matter of about 5 seconds. The engine never slowed and steam usage stayed exactly the same. While I understand that this model has highly sophisticated lua's to create a more realistic sim and thus the values displayed in the HUD or F5 read out may be irrelevant, I know the engine should not perform the same whether at 10% or 100% throttle!

Is anyone else experiencing this same effect?

2014-12-04_00002.jpg

2014-12-04_00003.jpg

As I said, "regulator" in the HUDs is not the physical position of the throttle. It's the amount of steam in the steam chest. You have to read pages 34-38 of the manual before trying to run the Advanced version. Actually, you should read the entire manual.

[mrennie]

You got me thinking on this one. My throttle doesn't seem to do much either. Something new goin on? I have more effect using the reverser for power.

The key is to watch the back pressure gauge in the cab - that's what it's there for.

At low speed, I tend use the technique whereby you put the reverser on long cut-off (as much as full, 80%, cut-off on dry rails, less if it's slippery) and adjust back pressure using the throttle. At higher speeds, above 20mph, I'll use the reverser to adjust back pressure, hooking up to conserve boiler pressure and to prevent the back pressure from building up too high, and leaving the throttle open enough so that back pressure doesn't fall away on it's own (without it being the result of hooking up). If I'm trying to go up a hill, I'll have the reverser far enough forward to get some acceleration or maintain speed, without the boiler pressure falling too much (if it does fall and doesn't look as though it´s going to recover by increasing the oil regulator - if the autofireman is on, I look over to see if he's increased it - I hook up some more to recover boiler pressure at the expense of decreasing the power). Going uphill is very much like going up a steep hill in a car with a stick shift - where the reverser is like the gears and the throttle is the gas pedal.

[XDriver]

Sorry mike. I'm ignoring the huds. I'm going by the back pressure gauge shows no difference from 10% to 100% with the regulator and loco power seems to have no effect from cracked open to fully open. Am I missing something else?
I have, for the most part, drive with the reverser with this engine when in fact all other steamers made for this game I drive with the regulator.

[mrennie]

Again, with regard to wheelslip, what matters is that back pressure gauge, not "regulator". If you're starting off with the reverser fully forward and let the back pressure go right to the end of the scale, that means you're applying the maximum starting tractive effort, which in the FEF-3 without the sanders on is enough to lose traction. It's worse on slippery rails. So, apart from using the sanders, you also have to master the technique of managing that throttle lever such that the back pressure (which, remember, is an indication of the pressure in the cylinders and therefore the force being applied to the pistons, the rods and eventually the driving wheels) doesn't get high enough to break traction when the loco is just moving off from stationary. You have to close the throttle to stop more steam going from the boiler into the steam chest, or immediately hook up the reverser - either way will reduce the back pressure and avoid wheelslip. You can also start off with a shorter cut-off - it's analogous to driving a car in icy road conditions, where it's often advisable to pull away in second gear and lightly touching the gas pedal, because putting the car into first gear and slamming down on the gas pedal (which equates to "regulator" at close to 100%) is a sure-fire way to spin the wheels (and skid off the road).

Here endeth the lesson for today.

[mrennie]

Sorry mike. I'm ignoring the huds. I'm going by the back pressure gauge shows no difference from 10% to 100% with the regulator and loco power seems to have no effect from cracked open to fully open. Am I missing something else?
I have, for the most part, drive with the reverser with this engine when in fact all other steamers made for this game I drive with the regulator.

Think of the steam chest (the "regulator" value in the HUDs) as a washbasin. The throttle is the faucet. The cylinder valve admission ports is the plug and the cylinders is where the water drains out (the plughole).

If the plug is left in all the time, the washbasin will fill up to 100% even if the faucet is only dripping. If the plug is pulled out most of the time, the washbasin will be empty most of the time, and to get more water into it (more water going down the plughole), you have to open the faucet more. By the way, I'm assuming that our washbasin has a lid and doesn't overflow when it's full.

When the loco is moving slowly, it takes longer to empty the steam chest. Even if the reverser is on a long cut-off, there are fewer piston strokes per second, so less volume of steam is used per second. So, you don't have to open the throttle much to keep the steam chest (our washbasin) full. Opening the throttle further than necessary has no additional effect - if 10% throttle is enough to fill the steam chest while the cylinder valve admission ports are closed, the using 100% throttle won't fill the steam chest any further (you can't overfill the steam chest). But when the loco is moving faster, with more piston strokes per second, at the same reverser (cut-off) setting, you take more steam (per second) from the steam chest, so you need more throttle to keep the steam chest filled and supplying the cylinders with steam.

It's complicated to explain all the different combinations and scenarios, but if you get the idea of what the steam chest is (and that "regulator" is the steam in the steam chest), how it is filled and emptied, and how the rate of emptying depends on cut-off and speed of the pistons, and how the rate of filling depends on the throttle, and that back pressure goes up and down as steam enters and leaves the cylinders, the rest falls into place.

[mrennie]

One further reminder:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/24010/discussions/3/624075482719543946/